Jeffrey Dahmer: Sociopath. And White.
John Allen Muhammed: Sociopath. And Black.
Richard Ramirez: Sociopath. And Mexican.
Seung-hui Cho: Sociopath. And Korean.
Do we see the commonality here?
Upon first hearing about the tragedy at Fort Hood yesterday, my first thought was that intra-army conflict is terrible for morale in the face of two wars being waged abroad. When members of a volunteer army start shooting bases up, that is not a good. Sporadic reports of the aftermath flowed in until the mother lode came through: the suspected gunman’s name.
Nidal Malik Hasan (which was first reported at Malik Nadal Hasan)
My eyes rolled in such a way that I’m surprised they remained in my head. My only thought: Good fucking grief.
As a person of color/member of a “minority” group, I saw the horrible ways this would be run with without knowing any facts at all. Nadal, some would assume, had lost his mind and gone all Islam on an army base. After learning that he was an American-born Palestinian who had been in the Service since 1995 and was a psychiatrist, the assumption was abridged (assuming, of course, that these elements were brought into consideration at all):
Nadal was a Muslim army psychiatrist who went all Islam on an army base.
My brain hurt just thinking about it. One of those elements is germane, while the other is but window dressing. Unfortunately, more than people like freedom, they like window dressing.
There’s nothing in the Koran that says “You should go ape shit and kill people if you disagree with the wars your army is fighting.” It doesn’t say that anymore than the Bible says “If you don’t agree with the practices of an abortion doctor, you should totally blow his brains out.”
When people who are not well do heinous, not well things, their frame of mind is infinitely more crucial than their ethnic makeup.
White, Black, Asian, Arab, Polka Dot… crazy is crazy. And in the case of heinous group action, they’re still a collection of troubled individuals who act in accordance with what they think.
But that’s the trouble. We tend to lack specificity in these matters if there’s window dressing we like to be afraid of, window dressing that is, more often than not, incongruous with the dominant culture. Shorter Pitts-Wiley: Stuff that’s not White.
Allow me to be specific here. In America, the dominant culture is of
European, namely Anglo-Saxon, bent. While the cultural is becoming more diverse in fits and starts, the rulers of the roost are still European. The cultural cues many of us take, regardless of ethnicity, are determined by this dominant culture.
The determination of dominance and power is filtered many ways, but can be corralled under the umbrella of Otherness; a distinction reserved for those of us who are not straight Christian White men.
In the realm of Otherness–where submission to the dominant culture is the name of the game–individuals become monolithic and general; lacking the ability to be seen as an individual, one’s actions speak for the group, especially those sensational and unattractive actions that seem to confirm intrinsic difference. The thinking, for many, is “Yes; that is tragic…but that’s kind of what Others do.”
A Hasan shot up an army base? Tragic…but come on. He’s a Hasan for crying out loud!
In the case of the sensational and unattractive actions within the dominant
culture, the offending individual is cast out not to the realm of Otherness, but simply, outside that which is considered ‘decent’. Oddly enough, these individuals become more unique, more individual as people try to understand “what went wrong.”*
*A notable exception here is, of course, homosexuals, whose preferences are so anathema to the dominant culture–at least publicly anyway–that they exist in almost an Others Others in which people puzzle over why they do what they do, not unlike space aliens.
Few within the dominant culture have pondered the heinous acts of Jeffrey Dahmer and questioned aloud, “What is this saying about White people?” Sure; many in profiling him and other White serial killers will make mention of his White nice, but the mention is detached, factual. The fact that’s he’s White is seen as little more than a characteristic, a piece of a puzzle.*
*Plenty of people of color have certainly said “Of course Dahmer was White! White folks are serial killers!” This is foolishness that I once took part in until that fateful day my freshman year of college when I found out the DC snipers were Black. I remember sitting on my dorm room couch feeling hurt on two levels: My socialized collective conscience forcing me to feel shame that wasn’t actually mine and the hurt I felt at not being able to say ‘White people are serial killers’ anymore. Alas, this is how we grow.
Before this seems like an attempt to blame the dominant culture for all the ills of the world–though of course it deserves its fair share of humble pie–recall that many Others follow the tone set. It’s a domino effect of sorts in which every group needs, in some way, to be just a bit better than another. Shorter Pitts-Wiley: It’s not just White people who are saying wild shit regarding Islam and the Fort Hood shooting.
So where do we go from here?
Let’s fall back from the inarticulate terrorist rhetoric. If this was indeed an act of terrorism–which has not been determined up to this point–let’s stay on topic. Let’s try to recall that terrorists, or freedom fighters, or patriots or people who get shit poppin’, are only speaking for themselves and people who agree with them. And the people who agree with them cannot be classified as “Anyone and everyone who looks like they do.” They’re not speaking for everyone who looks like them or has a name like them. And they’re not agents of God either.
A Muslim army officer committed a disgusting act of violence.
Nidal Malik Hasan. Maybe crazy, definitely snapped. And Palestinian.*
*Originally, I had ’sociopath’ as a nice bookend, but as I looked into the definition, I realized such a determination couldn’t be made at this point. Is he a sociopath? That remains to be seen, but chopping down forty-three people who you don’t know like that–and killing thirteen of that number– requires both planning and being on some other shit.
**Check out the follow-up to this post: “Killing in the Name Of”
83 responses so far ↓
Sylvia // November 6, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Um… the Quran does say that, about a hundred times, e.g.:
Qur’an (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
And according to witnesses he was yelling the infamous “Allahu Akbar” before he opened fire. Yes, he’s crazy, but his crazy had help. It’s also relevant that he was Middle Eastern. According to colleagues and contacts, he didn’t want to enter that theatre as part of an army fighting against those he felt to be his own people. He had been desperate to get out of the service for some time because of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, which is hardly crazy. They backed him into a corner, and it looks like he chose the glory of jihad as his way out (and he is already being glorified by like-minded Muslims). Maybe the army needs to look at whether they should compel people to fight (however indirectly) people of their own ethnicity if they don’t want to. It may be asking too much, especially in a fraudulent war.
These things are always complex, and we shouldn’t dismiss any factors just to make ourselves more comfortable. They all need to be looked at. Just saying “he’s crazy” is too simplistic. There may be things we can do to prevent these things if we look at them carefully and honestly.
Joy // November 6, 2009 at 2:21 pm
The commonality here is the gender.
Sylvia // November 6, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Ya, it’s true that males, in every culture and throughout time, commit the vast majority of violent acts. Yet another thing for society to take a look at.
Salman // November 6, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Regarding the verse of the Quran in the first comment, please don’t quote things without providing or understanding their context. You could quote a single line out of any book, and completely misrepresent it.
I’m not a scholar of the Quran but just looking at that line and how it is worded it’s obvious it is referring to a specific situation (i.e. ‘unbelievers that are near to you’).
Thanks for the rest of your comment however – it provided a perspective missing from the original posting.
Mike // November 6, 2009 at 5:09 pm
a sad day
Margi Macdonald // November 6, 2009 at 5:26 pm
I’m interested in Dr Hassan’s work as a psychiatrist in a facility which specializes in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
How did years of working with personnel damaged by these hideous, futile wars affect this man – personally?
What kind of supervision – of the kind which psychs must provide to their peers – was Dr Hassan receiving?
Was there an implicit – unofficial of course – expectation from the military machine that an army shrink should patch-em-up and send-em back into the fray asap, and repeatedly?
There is WAY more to this than we might imagine.
Unfortunately, because it happened where it did, the nuances, complexities and multi-factorial nature of this tragedy will never be fully explained to the public.
Sylvia // November 6, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Salman, it’s difficult to say what the context for that verse is. Earlier parts of the sura chastise those who won’t go to war with Mohammed, though it does say some should be excused to study and teach religion. It also promises paradise to those who kill and are killed for God. It’s difficult to say if that is supposed to apply only to that time and place or forever and everywhere. That’s the problem with these verses in the Qur’an: lack of context. You can’t take something out of context if there’s no context there to begin with! Maybe scholars know the historical context but the text itself doesn’t seem to have much.
Nabeel // November 6, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Sylvia, it is clearly stated in many places that ‘killing for God’ is a LAST resort and not an option that can be reverted to at will, like the so-called Muslims seem to do. There is no ‘Muslim’ who will blow up a bomb in a crowd and kill a hundred innocents. There is no place for that in Islam, anywhere.
The verses in the Quraan do have context – but not all publications include that information. Which chapter is that verse from? More specifically, when and where was it revealed? That will tell you a lot about the context.
In case you are unaware of the history, Muslims coexisted peacefully with Jews in both Madina and Jerusalem hundreds of years ago.
“There’s nothing in the Koran that says “You should go ape shit and kill people if you disagree with the wars your army is fighting.””
He’s completely right. The Quraan does not state that. It does however require Muslims to fight invaders. Nidal was not a victim of any invasion – just deranged and maybe confused. We’ll never know the full story behind that.
It’s a pity ‘Allahu Akbar’ is ‘infamous’ because it simply means God is the Greatest and is meant to be a supplication.
But yes, I agree with Salman, your point that he seemed to have been forced to choose between Arabs and Americans is very correct. Margi’s observation that he was probably shaken by his experiences with war veterans also seems to be spot on.
No sane, true Muslim will glorify his senseless act of murder. Murder is one of the few unforgivable sins in Islam. Those who glorify him are either evil or misled.
Rod // November 6, 2009 at 10:50 pm
theist are in fact dangerous than atheist when it came to some matters.
danakennedy // November 6, 2009 at 11:18 pm
As a middle-aged white guy who also isn’t a serial killer, I totally agree with your viewpoint, and I sympathize with the plight of those fine, normal, well-balanced Muslims who love their children and just want a good life for them. We need to be careful not to allow ourselves to condemn a culture, a race, or a religion just because of the heinous actions of one or more persons within that group. Good guys can be any color, any religion, or from any political group!
http://danakennedy.wordpress.com
http://oldcameras.wordpress.com
journalbysepi // November 7, 2009 at 12:42 am
This is a very sad day for those victims ,family of the victims and family of the accused. No one in their right mind would commit a disgusting crime like this. It has been reported in the news about how Hasan was constantly in the presence of soldiers talking about their Post-traumatic stress disorder issues. I think people are forgetting that he too is a human being. He can make the same errors as another person in his shoes. This could have happend to any one of the soldiers. I don’t think that it has anything to do with religion. If he wanted to blow up and kill all the people he would have done that as soon as he got hired at that place. I think that there must have been a lot of things leading up to this situation. He is a human being just like anyone else and I think there is a deeper and more problematic issue with this person. Even if you are a Dr. they should have an outside independent force with open communications so that they don’t feel they have to carry all of the pressure on their shoulders. It’s unfortunate that people right away choose to blame religion over basic facts.
I think that he should be held responsible for his actions but I also hope that he gets a chance to explain himself. Was he on drugs ? Maybe he has a health problem we don’t know about. Only time will tell.
Peace
Sylvia // November 7, 2009 at 2:06 am
Nabeel, that verse was 9(Repentance):111, and previously mentioned was 9:123. I’d be interested to know the verses that state killing is allowed only as a last resort.
mak009x // November 7, 2009 at 5:35 am
@ Sylvia, the verse you quoted in the first comment was the permission given by Allah to fight the Quraish, who had waged war against the then muslims.
You should read the context of the verse before making your own meaning out of it.
mak009x // November 7, 2009 at 5:38 am
‘Who Cares’ What the Religion of the Muslim Shooter Is? http://tinyurl.com/yclal6d
Marianne // November 7, 2009 at 6:04 am
This has nothing to do with color or being a minority. Screaming “allah is the greatest” while massacring people made it obvious.
The violence in the Koran against the kafir (unbeliever) takes up 61% of the text. Every mention of the kafir is brutal, condemning, pejorative, hateful and threatening. The Hadith, the Traditions of Mohammed, has 20% of its text devoted to jihad. The Sira, Mohammed’s life, has 70% of the text about Mohammed as prophet devoted to jihad.
Islam is not a religion, but a complete civilization that has a political doctrine of annihilating and subjugating all kafir civilizations. This doctrine had been put into action for the last 1400 years and has caused the deaths of 270 million kafirs.
Islam has annihilated entire civilizations. Take Afghanistan as an example. Before, Islam invaded the civilization of Gandharva, it had been peaceful for four centuries and was wealthy. Buddhism flourished and great art was produced. Then came Islamic jihad and Ghandarva was destroyed down to the last work of art and the last Buddhist.
Today we have the armpit of the world-Afghanistan, an Islamic nation based upon Sharia law and Islamic politics. Buddhism and Gandharvan culture have been totally destroyed.
Islam denies that all cultures are equally valid. Islam insists that it is superior all other cultures. All cultures are not equally valid and all other cultures must submit. It is the will of Allah, and it is Sunna (the way of Mohammed).
What is odd is that tolerant multiculturalists defend the Islamic monoculture so much.
Kitchen Magic // November 7, 2009 at 6:14 am
I was so shocked when I heard about this. I think they need to be doing more about the phyc side of things to stop things like this happening..
Ben // November 7, 2009 at 6:46 am
The Fort Hood shooting must be put in context. Fort Hood has the highest suicide rate in the US Army. As a military psychiatrist the shooter had to bear during the last decade thousands of confessions from military servicemen tormented by the atrocities they committed in Iraq and Afghanistan. As a muslim he was driven mad by all the horrors committed against other innocent muslims. Many of those who committed these horrors couldn’t stand themselves stand them and put an end to their lives.
Mellie Agon // November 7, 2009 at 7:44 am
Males don’t commit the majority of violent acts because males are innately more violent. It is because they hold most of the power and are socialised in a particular way.
It is a product of society, not of what you have between your legs.
truthwalker // November 7, 2009 at 8:47 am
@Ben. Wow, so I suppose that is why Turkey is so backward? I mean 98% of the population is Muslim. And Turkey is really…oh wait, they have have the 15th largest economy on earth, listed as fully developed by the UN and growing at twice the speed of the US’s. That makes your Muslim theory look pretty stupid. Maybe what you meant to say was countries run by Muslim extremists…because Christian and Buddhist extremism have such a wonderful record when they are in charge, right? Nobody ever misused the Bible to kill people…oh wait, there was the Crusades, and Hitler. The problem isn’t Islam.
truthwalker // November 7, 2009 at 8:49 am
sorry, that was at Marianne. The willful ignorance pouring off the screen made it hard to read.
Perry Robinson // November 7, 2009 at 8:50 am
First, if he was crazy, then he was not morally responsible for his actions because crazy people can no longer distinguish right from wrong.
Second, if jihad was a recourse of last resort then Mohammed and Muslims have employed the last resort a whole lot of times over the last 1,400 years. North Africa and the Middle East all the way up through the Balkans and across to Malaysia and Indonesia didn’t become predominantly Muslims by passing out tracks saying how Allah loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.
As for the peaceful co-existence of Jews, Christians and Muslims in Jerusalem and other places, this is pure fiction. This is like saying that African-Americans lived happily with their White neighbors in Alabama prior to the 1960’s.
Given the Poll taxes, discrimination and subjugation of non-Muslims in those areas it is pure fiction to call such existence peaceful. Ask any Copt today about it. Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Sicily, Rome, Morroco, et al were not invaders.
Sylvia is quite right and even though the passage was originally used about the Quaryish, Muslim jurists have repeatedly used it for centuries to justify their non-defensive invasions.
gabrielle // November 7, 2009 at 10:40 am
thank you. as a muslim, i am concerned about the shooter’s religion taking precedence over his mental state. and thank you Salman for reminding people not to take the qur’an out of context. the surahs are based on historical events (whether ‘historical’ is fact or allegory).
Sylvia // November 7, 2009 at 11:43 am
mak009x, thank you for that information. It’s too bad the text itself isn’t clear about the context or how it should be interpreted. It seems to be completely open to interpretation.
tammy // November 7, 2009 at 11:44 am
Don;t blame religion blame the man through whom the devil works nutcase crazy etc…
Trutap // November 7, 2009 at 11:57 am
the commonality is they all went ape shit in the usa – were all victims of american society… the aggression oozes out of everything that i have ever heard about the usa, ever since i could understand the news.
cpyouth // November 7, 2009 at 12:42 pm
True, the man was crazy, but you can’t just take that and forget the rest. In a world where things go horribly wrong and tragedies happen too often, it’s important to look at the ’causes instead of putting down people who are.
Do I think it’s important that he was Muslim? Absolutely, and that avenue should be investigated as thoroughly as every other instead of pushed under the covers. That’s too politically correct.
At the risk of being looked at like a shameless self promoter, my last blog deals entirely with political correctness in correlation with this terrible tragedy.
Ben, I’m pretty sure the reason Ft. Hood has the highest suicide rate because it is the largest military base. If it turns out it is the highest percentage wise and not just sheer numbers, my bad. I lived in Killeen, TX up till about a week and a half ago and it is no different than anywhere else.
bigvdrums // November 7, 2009 at 1:54 pm
What religion was the guy in Arizona who ran over his daughter?
aashton // November 7, 2009 at 2:55 pm
@ Marianna, I think you’re post is absolutely perfect in describing Islam. It is not a peaceful religion and no reasonable person believes it is. Way to go!
Perry Robinson // November 7, 2009 at 2:57 pm
This is like saying that all the Germans who executed millions of people or mistreated them in the ghetto’s were insance and their political ideaology of National Socialism had nothing to do with it.
Don’t complain about the Crusades if you’re going to excuse this kind of behavior based on some supposed unproved insanity in the mind of the perpetrator.
Sylvia // November 7, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Excellent point, Perry. Just because we consider someone’s actions immoral doesn’t mean they are crazy. I think we call people like this crazy because we don’t want to get into moral arguments, partly because they are difficult and sensitive, and partly because they raise uncomfortable questions about our own actions. Hasan betrayed his country, but his country betrays its soldiers by sending them to die in an immoral war. Talking about right and wrong opens many cans of worms, so we’d rather just call him crazy and be done with it.
Perry Robinson // November 7, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Sylvia,
I remain unconvinced that the war was immoral. Be that as it may, we can take a lesson from Henry V, wherein if the kings cause be just or unjust is guilt born by the king alone, whereas each man is accountable for his own actions regardless of what immoral commands a king may give.
If we dimiss grossly immoral persons as simply crazy we run the risk of not understanding their immorality and therefore leave the door open for people to recapitulate their faulty moral reasoning or ideaology. Unforunately, this is why Hitler is never shown via translation and so people never understand what National Socialism was, why it was so persuasive and why it was wrong. I think Hitler was responsible and not crazy, just seriously wrong.
Likewise if we ignore history, even our own in say the Muslim raids and taking of Americans as slaves in the Barbary Coast Wars after the American Revolution, we leave others in our culture open to the reasoning of this recent shooter.
Nabeel // November 7, 2009 at 4:02 pm
check your facts, people.
marianne, your comment exudes so much ignorance that i’m not going to even bother wasting my time on it. your attitude and ignorance represent the worst in america and it is the reason why so many people around the world dislike (if not hate and despise) america and americans.
perry,check your facts. what do you think jihad is? look up the definition from the SOURCE and don’t rely on what the media tells you. in fact one of the major reasons why the muslim empire grew to the extent that it did and why islam has REMAINED in those regions is the way the muslims treated others. i’m not from malaysia or indonesia, but muslims there are amongst the most enlightened and moderate people in the world.
Who defines who is and is not a ‘Muslim jurist’?
No true Muslim will kill innocents and cite Allah or Quraan. That is certain.
And I am not excusing his behavior at all – if he thought he was following holy orders – he was wrong, in every single way. the taliban might support his actions, but you won’t see anyone from, say, Al Azhar University, supporting murder.
Perry Robinson // November 7, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Nabeel,
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian I am sufficiently familiar with the facts. Second, I have read the Koran and enough of the hadiths for myself to verify what I claim. Third, I have taken university courses on the rise and expansion of Islam. Fourth, I’ve taught world religions at the university level. Fifth, I know enough Christians in Indonesia, Turkey and Egypt to know your claim is false. Christians there have to get permission from muslims to build a church or even to make repairs. There are plenty of other discriminatory laws in place to keep non-muslims down that would have made the KKK proud.
Sixth, the reasons why the Muslim kingdoms grew was the use of force and extraction of poll taxes from those peoples they conquered as well as compulsory janissary service. Just read the standard textbook on Islam used across universities in the US for the last thirty years-Marshall Hodgson, The Venture of Islam, Univ. of Chicago.
So Nabeel, I’d suggest you stop reading secondary Muslim sources and read the primary texts of what those conquered people had to say for themselves rather than what the victors wrote about them.
As for who is innocent, Islam means submission and a Muslim is one who submits. Peace comes after submission has taken place.Those who do not submit are in principle at war with Islam and therefore not innocent. They are of the “house of war.” This is what justified invasions of non-attacking cultures as “defensive” wars. Just take the sack of Rome in 822. The first Crusade wasn’t till 1096.
Sylvia // November 7, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Thank you for putting it so clearly, Perry, that’s what I was trying to say.
Lawrence Kennon // November 7, 2009 at 4:24 pm
If some one goes to a Christian revival and “get’s religion” then about the worst that can happen is that he/she might sign over their money to the church and annoy a lot of people by trying to give them flyers to “Come To Jesus!.”
But when Muslims really “get religion,” they go out and buy an AK-47, or start downloading manuals on how to build a suicide vest.
Ana Paula // November 7, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Sociopath. And doctor ????
poverty_dieter // November 7, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Bummer.
dekema22 // November 7, 2009 at 7:29 pm
I recommend Noni Darwish’s book Now They Call Me Infidel for some perspective on Islamic culture and politics. She was born at a unique time in history and had a direct view of the Palestinian situation as it formed as well as the way the Arab nations fostered the strife. She talks about how Egypt uses ubiquitous anti-Israel and anti-American language as a way of manipulating its own people. She also reveals her surprise at the militant attitude that Islamic people have in US based mosques. Her book is an interesting personal story; daughter of a war hero, member of the Egyptian elite, an immigrant to America, and it is also a revelation of a culture that is not understood by Americans or the western press.
I am sure Nidal Hasan was a little crazy, but his actions are supported by a culture that consistently produces crazy people like him. I’m not surprised to see this tragedy after reading what I have read about Islam. That is a sad thing to say.
Nabeel // November 7, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Perry, being from a certain religion does not mean you know the facts. Second, did you read the Quraan in the original Arabic knowing the context behind the verses? Or if you read a translation, which one did you read? One of the many bogus ones floating around or a universally accepted translation (Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, etc)?
Of course, since you are so distinguished, I’m sure you are aware that there are many fake ahadith (the plural form of hadith) and that hadith have been classified into several categories by Muslim scholars and also that most of the ahadith that the extremists use to justify their actions are classified untrustworthy?
Again, taking or teaching university courses does not mean that you are an expert. There are many versions of the history – and there are enough false versions and false translations of the Quraan to make me have, at the very least, doubt about what you did and did not study. I will check out the book you mentioned. (Which, by the way, is a secondary non Muslim source on Muslim history.)
Muslims can build mosques in Christian-majority nations as they please? There’s no discrimination going on against Muslims in North America? Really?
Anyway, arguing like this will do nothing to move the conversation further. Both of us are agreed in that Nidal Hasan was wrong – what he did was completely unacceptable. But some of the commenters here are generalizing and passing on incorrect beliefs that the RELIGION is the SOURCE of VIOLENCE. It ISN’T. Misinterpretations may be one source. But every religion continues to have exploiters. I continue to battle against those who try to justify hatred on the basis of religion. It won’t get anyone anywhere. Understanding others will.
Lawrence’s comment is a prime example. Suicide is clearly prohibited in Islam.
Nabeel // November 7, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Dekema, google ‘Hillary Clinton Benjamin Netanyahu Mahmoud Abbas’ if you’re unaware of the u-turn the American govt has just executed in the Middle East and how Mrs. Clinton has been frantically trying to fix her gaffe.
If you tolerate this, your children will be next. « sixtydoses. where od is harmless. // November 7, 2009 at 8:29 pm
[...] Filed under: Life — Tags: stupidity, war — od @ 9:29 am When I first read about him in the news few days ago, I was like.. oh [...]
Perry Robinson // November 7, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Nabeel,
Given that the Orthodox have suffered the long blunt of Islam, there are few people in my community from the old countries that don’t know of such things firsthand. The Tirkish invasion of Cyprus in the 1970’s is but one example. Your comment is akin to saying that being Jewish probably doesn’t put one in a better position to know about the Holocaust. Chances are, it does.
Second, I don’t need to read the Koran in Arabic to know what it says. If it weren’t possible to give an adequate translation, then no Arabic speaker would ever be able to learn English or vice versa, but it happens all the time. Muslim apologists can’t read Greek or Hebrew, and yet somehow magically it doesn’t stop them from being critical of the Bible. In fact most Muslims I have known are Pakistani, who can’t even read Arabic, they read Urdu! The translation I read was from Penguin Classics by Dawood. I’ve read parts of others and the translation doesn’t seem to vary much. Any language can be translated into any other language, it all depends on how many words you need to use in the target language to do it.
I am aware that some hadiths are deemed more reliable than others. I am also aware that not all Suras are as authoritative as others as some earlier suras have been abrogated by later ones. Consequently, it is the order of the suras that matter more than the translation. In any case, unless you are willing to categorize people like Mehmet and the like as an extremists I think you are on the short end of the stick.
I never claimed to be a specialist in Islamic studies, but I don’t have to be to be sufficiently well versed on the history and theology of the religion or to be correct. There are not only many translations of the Koran, but also textual variants where its texts have been changed as those found in Yemen by German scholars a number of years ago. http://www.theatlantic.com/past/issues/99jan/koran.htm
It is irrelevant that Hodgson is not a Muslim. This is the great thing about objective standards of scholarship, logic and peer review. What matters are the procedures used to establish claims, not who makes he claim.
Yeah, Muslims build Mosques in the US, Canada, and lots of other places as they please. There are no special hoops or restrictions that are placed on them like non-Muslims in Muslim dominated countries. There is one right down the street from my house. There’s plenty of mosques in Italy, France, England, etc. Individuals may practice forms of harassment or discrimination, but gov’t policies strictly prohibit it such that people can and have been fined or sent to prison for doing so. Such is not the case in Muslim countries. In fact, Muslims in the US face the least amount of discrimination and hate crimes. According to the FBI, Jews and African Americans face the most by almost a factor of 10 compared to that of Muslims. Just ask a Copt outside of Muslim lands how they are treated back home for example or ask a Greek about the Turkish occupation of Greece for 300 years. These are not exceptions, but the rule. Islam has a history. Muslims in the US don’t need to get the permission of their non-Muslim neighbors to build a mosque. Nor are they required to clean the public toilets like in Yemen up till 1979 or so on their day of worship as they required Jews to do on Saturday and Christians to do on Sunday. Nor are Muslims restricted from publishing books critical of other religions or anything from that matter, but you can’t do so in Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan. And how about conversion? Are people in the US free to convert as much as they want to whatever they want? Surely its easy as pie as the fact that there is a new denomination in the US every three days shows. How easy it is to convert from Islam to something else in say Egypt, Turkey or Indonesia? Good luck, you’re own family members will kill you while the police watch. So please me the cry me a river with respect to Muslims living in non-Muslims lands. You’d have better luck rubbing a lamp.
Again it seems to me that to ignore his beliefs is akin to ignoring the beliefs of Nazi’s in Germany in assessing the moral blameworthiness of their actions. If there are hate crimes, then the beleifs and intentions of the perpetrator are relevant,then they are relevant here.
Suicide is prohibited in Islam, but dying in Jihad is not. Dying in the defense of Mohammed or Islam is not either. So it all depends on how we define the borders of what qualifies as suicide and what doesn’t.
joey // November 7, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Assalamualaikum
When it goes talk about “jihad” you should know well, where it started ?
You couldn’t quote Koran just like that, it need an explanation by the Koran expert, not just like as is read.
I beg you guys, please don’t generalized all muslim..they have different kind of interpretation about jihad.
And it’s better chill your self, if you don’t know much about Islam..
Wassalamualaikum
steve // November 8, 2009 at 2:42 am
Wafa Sultan was right about Islam
Argus // November 8, 2009 at 2:46 am
All we see from this end of the world is that he’s an AMERICAN ARMY OFFICER …
and its sept again. « precession. // November 8, 2009 at 4:58 am
[...] is one particular blog entry which I find interesting. When people who are not well do heinous, not well things, their frame of [...]
nsahmed // November 8, 2009 at 9:31 am
Perry, how exactly is the Turkish invasion of Cyprus an example if Islamic violence? A simple overview of the facts tells me that conflict had little to do with Islam. Indeed, half a century before the invasion, Ataturk had radically reformed Turkey to disassociate it with the remnants of the Ottoman civilization.
“I don’t need to read the Koran in Arabic to know what it says.”
I’m not even going to begin to reply. I thought you were educated.
And about textual variants – there is no such thing. That’s like me opening a press and publishing fake versions of the Bible and then someone citing that. Every single official copy of the Quraan is identical.
Ooh, touched a raw nerve did I? Your assertions arguing the treatment of Muslims in non Muslim lands and vice versa are horribly biased. Again, I thought you were educated.
We can argue for years and won’t achieve anything. I’m not wasting any more time on this debate – but please beware of the dangers of ignorance and biased knowledge.
Le Mystique // November 8, 2009 at 10:00 am
Don’t want to indulge in a debate that is going on since long without any side getting any convincing victory…
The soul all religions is good and there are many atheists/agnostics who are great human beings…
“What the echo of the wall tells
is the rotting of the stone, and not the soul”
thebastardofthechurch // November 8, 2009 at 10:12 am
1. Hasan should’ve never been allowed in the Army in the first place. The “all inclusive” military undermines its power and morale and you never know where the loyalties of the individual rest. Muslims, fags, and other parasites should never fight with real men–they always crack under pressure. Show a true hero that comes from any of these fringe groups. And Barney Frank doesn’t count!
2. The argument “all Muslims are not violent” is over–neither are chimpanzees. But when provoked they’ll rip your freakin’ head off!
3 The definition of “terrorism” is – Terrorism-the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. Is that not what Hasan did? Is he not a terrorist? How could that not be? Jeffrey Dahmer killed people because he liked to eat them. John Allen Muhamed is not a Muslim. He was a meber of the Nation of Islam, a black wanna Muslim religion which practices nothing near true Islam. Richard Ramirez was a drug addict whose brain was fried on drugs. Seung-Hui Cho is a prime example of why retarded kids should go to special schools and not be intermingled with normal kids. Hasan did what he did because he is a Muslim and his religious convictions made him kill, just like the Q’uran tells him to do–and just like the rest of Islam will do. Just give them time.
4. GOD is GREAT–not Allah. Allah is the devil, and Mohammed is dead. Jesus lives!
Findislam // November 8, 2009 at 10:47 am
Blame it on the media!
In Europe, according to a European Council report, in the year 2007, 583 failed, foiled and successful terrorist acts took place.
Out of those, four were attributed to Islamists, 21 to left wing, 1 to right wing, and 532 to separatists. How come we never heard of those terror acts committed by separatists? How come there is little analysis of those acts?
How come intellectuals like Bernard Lewis etc are silent on those other terror-related incidents?
Doubtless, our world faces a serious challenge from those who have used violence as a means to promote their political and even religious agenda. But we cannot simply hold an entire faith and community responsible for that. As long as we will continue to do that, we will never be able to understand the real motives behind acts of terrorism and, consequently, we will promote hatred and prejudices that will never enable us to face the true problems.
* Suspected mass murderer Nidal Malik Hasan: Identified as a Muslim American of Jordanian or Palestinian Descend, a sympathizer of suicide bombing, a convert to Islam, a Jihadist, a true believer in the Quran, a practicing Muslim, a promoter of Al-Qaida ideology, a member of a terrorist cell and so on so forth.
Look at the pattern of news reporting about mass killers in our national and local media listed below and then tell me who is distorting facts? Tell me who is misleading the public? Tell me who is sowing the seeds of hatred. Some of them will say, Aslam Abdullah, because he is a Muslim American, a Middle Eastern by ethnicity and a covert terrorist. Can any sensible American accept their claim? Yes, only those who see Muslims and Islam as their new enemy. These are people who are trapped in the history of the past and refuse to look at Islam and Muslims from an objective, balanced and fair perspective.
Let’s start with another shooting incident that follows on the heels of the Fort Hood incident:
* November 06, 2009, Florida police have arrested a suspect believed to have opened fire Friday in the offices of an engineering firm where he was let go more than two years ago. Authorities have identified the alleged gunman as Jason Rodriguez, 40, a former employee at the office building. Did any news media identify him as an American of Hispanic decent?
* On March 10, 2009, Michael McLendon set fire to the rural south Alabama home he shared with his mother with her body inside. He then set off on a 24-mile shooting spree during which he fired more than 200 rounds and killed 10 more people, including himself. Was he ever described by the media or officials as an American Protestant?
* On April 3, 2009, a Vietnam immigrant killed 13 people and then himself in a shooting spree at the American Civic Association in Binghamton, New York. Did anyone call him a Vietcong terrorist?
* In the year of 1989, in two separate incidents, Westley Allen Dodd sexually assaulted and killed three boys ages 11, 10 and four. His methods were so heinous, forensic psychologists dubbed him one of the most evil killers in history. Did anyone call him Christian killer?
* Jeffrey Dahmer was responsible for a series of gruesome murders of seventeen young men in Ohio and Milwaukee. Who called him a Christian murderer? No one!
* Why Ray and Faye Copeland, both in their 70s, went from being loving grandparents to serial killers who used the clothing of their victims to make a warm winter quilt to snuggle under is a story both morbid and perplexing. Did anyone describe them American terrorists?
* Dean Corll was a 33-year-old electrician living in Houston, Texas, who, with two teen accomplices, was responsible for kidnapping, torturing, raping and murdering at least 27 young boys in Houston in the early 1970s. – No one called him an evangelical terrorist?
* Accompanied by his girlfriend Debra Brown, Alton Coleman went on a six-state raping and killing spree in 1984. – He was not described as a Christian rapist?
* Angelo Buono, Jr. was, along with his cousin Kenneth Bianchi, one of the Hillside Stranglers who went on a two month rape, torture and murder spree in 1977, in California. – Was he identified with his religion and ethnicity?
* Jerry Brudos was a shoe fetishist, serial killer, rapist, torturer and necrophiliac who stalked women around Portland, Oregon in 1968 and 1969. – Should we blame the people of Oregon and call him an Oregonian rapist?
* In 1984, at age 21, Debra Brown became involved in a master/slave relationship with habitual killer and rapist Alton Coleman and the two went on a massive killing, raping and torture spree across the Midwest. – No one ever mentioned his race or religion.
* William Bonin was a habitual sex offender turned serial killer, suspected of sexually assaulting, torturing and killing at least 21 boys and young men in California. He was convicted and executed for 14 of the 21 murders. – No one talked about his affiliation to his local Church.
* Herbert Richard “Herb” Baumeister (April 7, 1947 – July 3, 1996) was the founder of the thrift store chain Sav-a-Lot and an alleged serial killer from suburban Westfield, Indiana. – His conservative background never came into discussion.
* Ronald Dominique of Houma, Louisiana confessed to murdering 23 men over the past nine years and dumping their bodies in sugarcane fields, ditches and small bayous in six southeast Louisiana parishes. – Yet, his Christian religious identity never came into discussion.
* Kristen Gilbert was a bright, attractive, well-trained nurse who, in 2001 was found guilty of killing her patients at a Veterans Administration medical center. – Did the media release footage of his visit to his place of worship? No
* Eagle Scout turned serial killer, Richard Angelo, killed patients in order to make himself out to be a hero.- Did anyone raise doubts about Scouting? No one!
* Helmuth Schmidt killed innocent women he lured through personal ads. – Did anyone blame the media for being an accomplice of the crime.
* The Lewington brothers were one of Ohio’s most deadly brutal serial killers of all time. – Did anyone bring about their Church affiliation? No one!
* Albert Fish is known for being one of the most vile pedophiles and killers of all time. After his capture he admitted to molesting over 400 children and tortured and killed several others. – Did the media talk about his religious pastor discussing his personal life?
Ads by Google:
Advertisements not controlled by IslamiCity
* Tedd Bundy was attractive, smart, and had a future in politics. He was also one of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history. Bundy screamed his innocence until his death in the electric chair was imminent. Then he told just enough to show the true evil inside him.- Yet no one in the media talked about his race or religion.
* Richard Ramirez, was named The Night Stalker, after terrorizing Los Angeles during a year long killing and rape spree that resulted in his conviction of 43 counts, including 13 murders and other charges including burglary, sodomy, and rape. – Yet no one talked about Satanism he was preaching and practicing.
* John Wayne Gacy was convicted of the torture, rape and murder of 33 men between 1972 until his arrest in 1978. He was dubbed the “Killer Clown” because he entertained kids at parties as “Pogo The Clown.” – Did anyone blame all the clowns for his behavior?
* Gaskins confessed to several murders during the last days of his life. How much truth was in his confessions was never confirmed. Many believed he did not want to be known in history as a tiny man, but rather as a prolific killer. – He was a devout Christian but we never heard of his religious convictions.
* David Berkowitz, better known as Son of Sam, is an infamous 1970s New York City serial killer who killed six people and wounded several others because a demon dog told him to do it. – Should we assume from his last name that he was of Jewish origin?
* The Plainfield, Wisconsin police department had no idea of the grotesque world they were about to enter when they went to Ed Gein’s farm home to investigate the disappearance of a local woman. Gein’s crimes went down in history as some of the most disgusting ever uncovered that encompassed murder, grave robbing and cannibalism. – Yet, no one ever mentioned that he was a Church goer.
* Juan Corona was a labor contractor who hired migrant workers for produce fields in California. In a murder spree lasting six weeks, he raped and murdered 25 men and buried their machete-hacked bodies in the orchards owned by local farmers. – No one blamed hedonism or homosexuality for his crimes.
* In late October 1979, California authorities were busy hunting down and capturing The Hillside Strangler, Angelo Buono. In the meantime, two more equally barbaric killers had teamed up to fulfill a prison time fantasy – to kidnap, rape, torture and kill a girl for each teenage year. – Yet, we did not hear of their worshipping habits.
* On October 26, 2005, Jeremy Bryan Jones was convicted of the rape, burglary, sexual abuse, kidnapping and capital murder of Lisa Nichols. He now faces prosecution for the murder of Katherine Collins of Georgia and Amanda Greenwell of Douglas County, Ga. Police suspect Jones is a serial killer who may be linked to at least 10 other murders across the country. – No one discussed his faith and ethnicity.
* For month authorities from Utah, Washington, and Colorado worked together to find the serial killer named “Ted” who was brutally killing women everywhere he went, using their kindness to lead them into his trap. – Yet no one blamed Christianity for impacting the mind of the killer.
* Donald “Pee Wee” Gaskins was the most prolific serial killer in South Carolina history. Once his brutality was unleashed, he knew no boundaries, torturing, killing, cannibalizing victims, both male and female. – No one talked about those verses in the Old Testament that degrades women, even though several versions of the Bible were found in his custody.
* Pedro Alonzo Lopez, known as the ÔThe Monster of the Andes,’ was one of history’s most horrific serial killers. He responsible for the brutal murders of over 350 children. He bragged of his crimes and promised to do it again if ever released from prison. – Yet in the middle of the night he was taken from prison to a van then driven to the Columbia border and set free. We never heard of his Catholic affiliation.
* Turner is the most prolific serial killer in the history of Los Angeles but was finally identified through DNA technology. – But no one identified his religion.
* No one could believe that the child-like face of John Eric Armstrong, nicknamed ‘Opie’ by his navy friends, was really the face of a cold and calculating serial killer. – But no one talked about his religious practices.
* Jack the Ripper, a serial killer murdered and mutilated at least five prostitutes in the East End of London in 1888 and because no one was ever, arrested or tried for the murders, crime buffs are still fascinated with the case more than 115 years later. – His religious background is unknown.
* It is estimated Shipman was responsible for 236 murders over 24 years, finally ending in 1998.- Yet, we never heard of his affiliation to Judaism or any other faith.
“Most of the time I killed them the first time I met them, and I do not have a good memory of their faces.” This is just one of many cold statements made by Gary Ridgway, when he pled guilty to 48 counts of aggravated first-degree murder in the Green River killing cases. – Yet little is known about his faith and Church.
Perry Robinson // November 8, 2009 at 1:58 pm
nahmed,
If the Turkish invasion of Cyprus had nothing to do with religion, why did the Turkish government destroy the Orthodox churches in Turkish occupied Cyprus? Second, in Islamic theology lands once controlled by Muslims are seen as theirs by divine right and therefore even if re-conquered are still considered to be belonging to Muslims. As for Ataturk, do you mean the secularization that permitted the Armenian genocide and the other mass murders of Greeks at the same time then again in the 1950’s? Religious freedom in Turkey is something on paper.
Simply because I disagree with you does not imply that I am not educated. And even if I weren’t it wouldn’t follow that my argument was wrong. You have attacked the source of my argument rather than the argument, which is the ad hominem fallacy in logic. My argument was that because any language can be translated into any other, there isn’t a significant loss of semantic content so a translation is adequate to know what the text says. Unless you wish to argue that Arabic is some sacred mystical language spoken by God and is therefore an exception, my argument still stands. Again, the point is driven home by the fact that Arabic speakers can learn English and vice versa. If there was significant semantic content that was reserved in Arabic, this would not be possible, but it is.
As to textual variants, there is such thing in the Koran and always has been. The textual evidence as I noted in the article from the Atlantic Monthly a number of years backs demonstrates it in the earliest Yemeni texts. Furthermore, under the second Caliph Uthman there were textual variants which is why he burned all the other texts to create a monolithic text. But even after than variations occurred as I noted above. But even if it were true that the Koran was preserved perfectly, it doesn’t imply that its contents were true, but only transmitted reliably. But false ideas can be transmitted reliably. If Hitler’s Mein Kampf had no textual variants from the original, it wouldn’t imply that the ideas that were transmitted were true. So even if true, its no proof of the truthfulness of the ideas in the Koran.
As for textual variants for the Bible, this isn’t the problem that you seem to think it is, since Christians and Jews have not held to a dictation theory of inspiration where each letter comes from God. It is the ipissima vox and not the ipissima verba, that is the very voice or message given to be expressed by various authors, not exact wording. Consequently, textual variation doesn’t present the kind of problems for my tradition as it does for Islam. One single change in the Koran disproves claims of its divine origins and the Yemeni texts show entire paragraphs of different wordings and different ideas expressed.
Saying I am biased isn’t a proof that I am so. You seem to confuse asserting a claim with demonstrating it. “I thought you were educated.”
josieg6 // November 8, 2009 at 2:03 pm
U forgot to put: George Bush: Sociopath
Perry Robinson // November 8, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Findislam,
Your arguments are specious for the following reasons. In none of the cases you present was there an ideology that mandated or permitted violence to subjugate or to retaliate against others. This is why their beliefs were not relevant.
In the same way, evaluating the practices of Nazi’s relative to their beleifs is relevant since it was their beleifs that motivated their action. A shooter who is hispanic isn’t touting an ideaology of the supremacy of hispanic supremacism to motivate his acts and neither is there a long history of such. Consequently his being hispanic is irrelevant, which is why we can look for other causes, like holding a grudge, being fired, being insance, etc.
As for the European council report, that depends doesn’t it on what counts as “separatists”? In the Philippines for example “separatists” are Muslims fighting for a separate Muslim state. When Muslims have used verses like 8:39 for centuries to launch full scale invasions of other countries and subjugate them without provocation, there is a long pattern of behavior and consistent and widespread interpretation that indicates that the religious beliefs are germane to why people commit such acts. Like what, Saladin and Mehmet misunderstood Islam??
So for example, what if a man is raised a Muslim but converts to say Judaism or Hinduism, what should, according to the Koran be done with such a person? What do they do in Saudi Arabia? Do all the ruling clerics in Saudi Arabia misunderstand Islam for century upon century? What’s next? The Pope misunderstands Catholicism?
What say you? What should be done with such a person?
Long before there was news reporting Mohammed and his followers have been using violence against non-Muslims to subjugate them, tax them, forcing them to wear separate clothes and have separate subservient legal systems akin to Jim Crow. This is why your argument that there is some supposed bias is fallacious.
Bonjukian // November 8, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Muslim is a religion that is adopted by diseased people. Allah is a 7th Century desert demon that the Muslim people pray to. We are in a war with Muslim and I don’t care if you are born here in America – you got to go. I don’t care where but after 911 Muslim Americans are not wanted here anymore. To allow them in our military when Gay people have been disenfranchised by our government is ridiculous.
I believe that every person that is an American muslim should be rounded up like the Japs and kept in concentration camps until our wars are over in their countries. Otherwise we are going to have more nutcases like this stupid Major who was a shrink killing our hard working soldiers.
I hope this hassan guy dies b/c if he doesn’t he’s going to be put through the ringer and wishing he was dead instead.
Jim Haynes // November 8, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Having worked in Government for 34 years it is not at all surprising that none of Hasan’s superiors took any immediate administrative action against him. Not only would it be politically incorrect to take any action against him. As in most supervisorial positions in Government none want to take any personal responsibility to the situation and to pursue any corrective measures necessary against the Dr. thus resulting in the deaths of 13 young American heroes. This horrible story is rife with negligence and not to my chagrin will repeat itself again sometime somewhere.
RIP noble servicemen
JH
Juneau // November 8, 2009 at 4:30 pm
You don’t know any quotes from the Koran. look at the world where there are terrorists and the overwhelming majority are Moslems doing it in the name of Islam
The soldiers killed were victims of political correctness
i82b4u2im3 // November 8, 2009 at 6:11 pm
When you want to be the rulers of the world, eg. The United States, others follow. Do you remember how the US shot their own students in the sixties, massacred central american people to rule trade. Some memories are so short. US has the highest per head of population of people in Gail. Its hard to find good examples in Military & governing bodies these days.
stoptheinvasionoforegon // November 8, 2009 at 7:38 pm
check out atlas shrugs for a really intelligent take on the Jihad that obama ignored.
WARNING ! WARNING ! WARNING!
Cuidado de Cuidado de Cuidado !
Go Back to Mexico Illegal alien
Gringo (extranjero) le estan Supervisando.
Se esta investigando su presencia Y Usted estara Deportado Si Le Encuentran para estar en Los Estados Unidos Ilegal
Aviso!
Este Proyecto esta bajo vigilancia
Se esta revisando su empleo aqui.
Le Han Advertido
Este Preparado para probar que usted esta en los estados unidos legalmente.
ICE: 503 326 7475 numero de telefone de la migracion
Department of Homeland Security
Immigration and Customs
Attn: Investigations
511 Nw Broadway
Christy // November 8, 2009 at 10:43 pm
I was so disappointed when I saw even my absolute favorite newspaper — the new york times — had included information about “alleged” and “unconfirmed” internet posts reflecting anti-american views by someone with a similar name. come on! how many muslims in the world? I wonder how many nidal hasans there are! I expected more from the NYT…
Sylvia // November 9, 2009 at 12:46 am
Christy, that web posting might not be his, but people who know him are saying he has extremist views. For example:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-07/major-hasans-hidden-militancy/full/
Combine that with social isolation, second-hand PTSD, and the pressure of imminent deployment, and…boom.
doggbAT // November 9, 2009 at 5:03 am
Wonderful article. I was thinking the same thing when I first heard the Fort Hood story, and read news lines that said: “Hasan’s religion is as of yet unknown”. It’s funny how the American viewer instantly jumps to racial profiling.
aworldnews // November 9, 2009 at 5:47 am
Major Nidal Malik Hasan, killed 13 soldiers and injured more than two dozen on November 5 by opening fire on his fellow soldiers at Fort Hood in a US military base, while shouting “Allahu Akbar” (God is Great). After fourteen hours, two people were killed and six were hurt in another mass shooting in the United States in Orlando, Florida. But the deadliest terror-event particular at the US military base is shocking for every one, belonging to any religious community.
Surprisingly, Major Hasan was a liberal and educated American national who was brought up in the modern civilization. One of his relatives remarked that after 9/11 attacks, Hasan, a Muslim, complained of being harassed by some service members for his religion, and he wanted a discharge. While a co-worker told that he had also expressed anger about the US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, and he did not want to be deployed to Afghanistan. Hasan spoke of the need for Muslims to “stand up and fight against the aggressor,” and the US.
Nevertheless, one of the important dimensions of this catastrophe is that it proves that now American war against terrorism has reached the US homeland. It also indicates that American policy makers have been following ill-conceived policies without grasping reality. more http://www.apakistannews.com/dimensions-of-fort-hood-shootings-146138
thebastardofthechurch // November 9, 2009 at 5:48 am
@Sylvia-
You mean to tell me an individual who picks up a weapon and makes a decision to shoot people was afraid of deployment? It was jihad plain and simple, no matter what you try to turn it into. And 2nd hand PTSD? HE WAS NEVER IN A COMBAT SITUATION–HE ONLY HEARD STORIES!!. I guess now people can get PTSD from watching “Saving Private Ryan”.
blackwatertown // November 9, 2009 at 8:42 am
I would hesitate to ascribe a primarily religious/jihadist/tafiri motivation to the shooter in this case. People instigating, or participating in, extreme events often call upon God – for support, for help, because they feel they’re about to meet them (“prepare to meet your Maker”), or because it’s just what you say when you’re under stress.
People who are Christians in only the most nominal way will call on Jesus at times of stress – sometimes in a way that more fervent Christians find offensive or profane.
So the shout out to God – whatever name is used – is not a clincher for me when it comes to motivation.
I don’t rule it out, but the case is far from proven.
On a bit of a tangent, Pentagon advisor David Kilcullen is interesting on the language, the words or terms, we use to to label Islamic combatants. http://wp.me/pDjed-1u
Drew // November 9, 2009 at 8:57 am
I agree that the “Allahu Akbar” shout doesn’t really give us a great picture of his motivations, and it’s actually pretty disturbing that so many people think it not only does, but resolves the question.
But I do think it’s unfair to try and boil everything suspected here down into race/ethnicity/otherness. There really IS a fringe ideology and movement within Islam that supports and justifies violence. Just like right-wing militants here in the US (like Tim McVeigh) when we talk about radical Islam we’re not talking about a race, but a set of beliefs. It’s perfectly fair to look to this ideology as potentially having played a role, whether just in terms of ideas, or even in terms of conspiracy, in this attack. We shouldn’t jump to conclusions of course, but if we’re going to speculate about PTSD and/or other such things, jihadist justifications for attacking the US have to be in the mix.
Perry Robinson // November 9, 2009 at 10:26 am
Uhm, Islam is not a race so it can’t be racial profiling. Second its not racial profiling since that is done PRIOR to any act nd not after. You are confusing that with building a composite of an apprehended suspect.
Second, if his remarks at the time of the event are not relevnat and at least do not significantly raise the probability of his motivations being religious, then consider the same scenario but with someone yelling “White Power” or “Heil Hitler” and other such White Supremacist nonsense. Would you even flinch at saying his White Supremacist ideology was the motivation? I don’t think so.
It is amazing how people will make excuses for the religion of Islam. I suspect its because they have really no grasp of its history.
Sylvia // November 9, 2009 at 1:15 pm
@thebastardofthechurch, Hasan wasn’t afraid of deployment (obviously he has no fear of death) but he didn’t want to go and participate in a war against fellow Muslims. That seems abundantly clear from what he told family and friends. He did try to make a legal appeal but apparently his appeal was rejected last week.
I think it is possible to get traumatized or at least deeply disturbed by hearing first-hand (not on film) stories of terrible atrocities all day every day, especially if you feel that those atrocities have been committed against your own people. How would you feel if it was your job to listen to people talk about killing Americans all day long? How could it not get to you after a while?
Why Religious Texts/Authorities ARE to Blame for Violence « That Shallow Fellow // November 9, 2009 at 3:12 pm
[...] that religious text, actually justifies violence and evil. We’ve got everything from people pre-bracing for the inevitable anti-Muslim backlash to a Forbes columnist angling to turn “Going Muslim” into the next “Going [...]
blackwatertown // November 9, 2009 at 4:32 pm
@ Perry Robinson I take your point about the possibility (you would say likelihood) of Hasan’s call out to God being a relevant pointer as to his motivation. But I disagree that it’s the equivalent shouting “White Power”, “Heil Hitler” or any other political slogan. Shouting a political slogan seems to me more likely to be a conscious choice, a statement. But religion is often something deeply ingrained, a thread through childhood, something drummed in throughout school and upbringing, so much so that by the time one reached adulthood, even if one has rejected the religion, some of the knee jerk reflexes have become second nature. SO yelling “Allahu akbar” could be an unconscious instinctive outburst, rather than a statement, never mind a political statement.
So that hearing that a shooter had yelled “Jesus Christ” would not necessarily suggest to me that religion was a motivator for the attack. (It could be, of course, but not necessarily.) It’s something that could speak of fear, anger, frustration – and could be a genuine call on God, or just a very strong exclamation.
So I’m not trying to make excuses for Islam, nor for any other religion. Far from it. Just trying to not jump to conclusions.
Perry Robinson // November 9, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Blackwatertown,
I understand your point but I disagree and here’s why. First, given the history of that exclamation the Islamic theology and history it doesn’t seem to be some extemporaneous exclamation. It is commanded to say just prior to an attack on “unbelievers” to terrify them. This has a long history in Islamic warfare as well as contemporary Islamic terrorism.
Second, given Nasan’s associations and past remarks and berhavior that are now coming to light, as well as the remarks of some of his associates that his victims deserve no pity and such, its becoming increasingly clear that he was motivated by his religious beliefs.
blackwatertown // November 9, 2009 at 6:13 pm
@ Perry Re your first point: Fair enough.
Re your second point. Yes, it’s interesting to move towards a clearer picture as more information emerges.
W. T. Stambaugh // November 9, 2009 at 7:33 pm
This was an excellent post. You are right on the money here, and I totally agree that Hasan may or may not be a sociopath, but to color him as “just another of those crazy Muslims” is a major stretch. My brother in law is a Sunni Muslim from Egypt who lives in the midwest, and he was terrified when this occurred, if only about what would happen to his family if people went on an anti-Muslim tirade.
I’d love it if we could link our sites. Again, I think you are an excellent writer.
A Note to Media: Know When to Say When
New on http://iamthewill.wordpress.com/
Media Politicize Fort Hood Shootings… Disgusting
thebastardofthechurch // November 9, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Sylvia said–”I think it is possible to get traumatized or at least deeply disturbed by hearing first-hand (not on film) stories of terrible atrocities all day every day, especially if you feel that those atrocities have been committed against your own people.”
WE ARE AT WAR WITH MUSLIMS. AND IT IS WHY MUSLIMS SHOULD NOT BE IN OUR MILITARY, YOU FREAKING IDIOT!!!!!!
Sylvia // November 10, 2009 at 1:10 am
So, when are you joining up, big man?
thebastardofthechurch // November 10, 2009 at 5:44 am
I already served 8 years, my wife 13 years. I am 46 years old and would serve again given the opportunity–but not under the current commander in chief.
Drew // November 10, 2009 at 11:08 am
We are not at war with Muslims… thank goodness you are no longer in the service. You’d be a total disaster serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Sylvia // November 10, 2009 at 2:14 pm
bastardofthechurch, you’ll only defend your fellow Americans if they also vote the same way you do? That’s bizarre.
thebastardofthechurch // November 10, 2009 at 5:27 pm
@Drew
We are not at war with Muslims?? What planet do you live on?
thebastardofthechurch // November 10, 2009 at 5:32 pm
@Sylvia
I will not serve a CINC that has no clue on how to lead the miltary, much less the rest of the country. I served under Clinton. I didn’t vote for him, but the man had more b@lls than our current CINC and he knew how to lead. So you make assumptions before you know your facts, just like a good liberal!
vollmond // November 11, 2009 at 5:53 am
Drew: “We are not at war with Muslims…”
But most Muslims will disagree with you, as the NMH case clearly shows.
Drew // November 11, 2009 at 11:25 am
“But most Muslims will disagree with you, as the NMH case clearly shows.”
Uh, how? The military is full of Muslim soldiers who have served and even died in our name, for their country. This should never be more clear than on a day like Veterans Day, where their service is supposed to be honored, not called into question on the basis of religious bigotry.
NMH was, as far as we can tell, an Islamic zealot inspired by and in contact with an anti-American Islamic zealot. But this does not demonstrate anything at all about “most” Muslims, and it certainly doesn’t speak for any one Muslim.
Boom Boom Chocolata // November 11, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Ummm…
What happened to the other two dudes in the shooting? How can a dude lick off over a hundred rounds byhimself and not get popped off trying to reload. Please, this shit is set up! Fuck you if you don’t see the State’s need of soldiers and the incremental steps towards getting them.
Poverty Draft, happy veterans Day!
thebastardofthechurch // November 11, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Drew-
You are a babbling idiot! Go spew your sh!t in the Middle East, raghead lover!